Our conversation continues.....

Update 7-30-2011
I received another email from Jeshua, he asked,
Ken, what do you think Psalm 82 is supposed to mean? In connection with John 10:34-35.

And who is the prince that fell? Is it the devil?

I debated whether I should even send this email, well here it is. Now, I would ask you to be honest even if you can't understand the meaning. I won't tell you what I think it means, because I think that it is already sufficiently clear as it is.
Jeshua

Jeshua,
I really appreciate you continuing with our discussion, thank you. And I am happy to discuss Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34 with you but I have a question for you about it, in all your conversations with Aaron, Ryan, Chip, Jamie's parents did you ever ask these questions before? If so did they answer them? If so, what did you reject about their answer and why? I assure you if they did answer these questions, my answer is exactly the same as theirs. I believe that the question about Psalm/John is very clear from the very verses.
Ken

Jeshua sent me two emails in response, here they are and my reply to them.

#1Actually, I did not ask them. My conversation with Aaron was mostly science related. and my conversation with Ryan was about the Book of Mormon. And Jamie's parents just tried hammering me with all the terrible things that they believed Joseph Smith did. And my conversation with you was doctrinally related. I am sorry that you drew the short end of the stick. I too, believe that Psalm 82 is very clear, and I can tell that you intend on buffering your answer with something like gods of this world or something like that men were evil, and worshiped false gods, or that the other gods, meaning men are false,  but it just doesn't say that, it doesn't use false anywhere in any of the verses. If it does in your NIV, then it is a mistake of careless translators. Because in the King James version it reads as fallows:
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods."

lets brake it down and see the meaning.

So it reads that God is the head/standeth of/in a meeting/congregation of the mighty/gods

So far it has not been later said that they were false.

Second verse:

"How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah."

Meaning that mankind has gone on in wickedness, and God has still spared them.

"Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked."

You might say that this means that the other gods that are in the congregation are wicked! And that the children are being led on in darkness after them; in other words to idolatry, well ser, you would be reading a lot into it-that just is not what it says:

David is asking God to defend the people who cannot defend themselves, and deliver them from those who are wicked.

"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course."

 In other words: They don't know, they are unwilling to understand, they are not walking in the light, all peoples of this planet have gone to not keeping the commandments.

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Here David is saying that all of us are children of the most High God, and that we ought to know better, because we are gods; knowing good and evil. And Jesus himself defends this in John 10:29-38.

"But ye shall die like men, and fall like on of the princes."

David is saying that because we do not fallow the most High God, then we will become as Satan the Father of all lies; who fall from heaven; the angel who was once also as a child of the most God, a prince of light. Or else how could he have fallen if he wasn't so high up?

"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."

Well the meaning is clear enough. I do have one other question; why do you assume that all the words of Satan are false, when a greater falsehood is greater when mixed with truth. Let me explain: Satan told Eve that they wouldn't die, that was the lie, but shall be as the Gods: know good and evil, let me ask you, did Adam still not know good and evil after partaking of the fruit; then why did he and Eve hide themselves from the Lord because they know that they were naked? Well? What do you have to say for yourself Ken!

#2
Actually I didn't discuss these issues with them. I talked to Ryan about the Book of Mormon. I talked to Aaron about science. And I talked to Jamie's parents about Joseph Smith and polygamy. But I guess I am talking to you about doctrine, I am sorry that you drew the short end of the stick. But if you don't want to discuss that then here is one for you.
How do you worship God in your day to day life? What do you do that is different than me from my daily walk of life? First of all Ken, let me tell you something, I feel just like a hypocrite from talking to you, I feel that by doing so I am serving the devil, I ask myself, who is more glad in me talking to you, God or Satan; and the answer is Satan. Satan is more glad because of the contention that we have in our discussions.

I know that I am unwilling to change because I know what I know to be true 100%. I also hear you say that about what you believe, and I wonder; what is the cause of our contention, and that my dear friend, is why I have wanted to discontinue our discussion.

But dear Ken, you believe that you have the absolute truth, or that you believe that the Bible contains everything necessary for salvation. And my dear Ken, you have a strong testimony of that. I guess that this is where we part ways. I hope that it is not for good. I hope that you can come to know that I know that you accept Jesus Christ in your life, and perhaps you could be a better christian if you were to leave Utah. And you are a good man no matter what you believe that the law condemns you for; in other words, you can look up to a God who loves you, as it says in John 3:16, and ask Him anything you desire to know. I would ask that you continue to read your bible daily, I would ask that you read it from the beginning to the end, and I will do the same.

I know that the Jesus Christ, of whom I have relied upon, has saved me, I know that he paid the price for my sins. And I know that he has forgiven me of my past transgressions, I know that I will need his help in the future, but I am not ashamed to call upon God for help. And I know that I can do all things in Christ, I know that I can become perfect in Christ. I know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, my Redeemer, I will have eternal life. God is my refuge. God is my guide. And I will keep all the commandments of my God. For he is my Father and your Father. He is my God and your God, and Jesus ascended to to him after the resurrection. I am a true christian, and you are a true christian if it so be that you fallow Him.

My reply to him,
Hi, Jeshua,
Thanks for asking about John 10 and Psalm 82. I read your second email carefully as well so I will reply here to both. First lets take a look at the John/Psalm verses in context and in the light of scripture and the words of the Savior Himself. One thing that I did want to mention to correct something that you said is, that while I am not opposed to the functional translations, like the NIV or my personal favorite, the New Living Translation or NLT of the Bible, (especially when reading the Old Testament), which are done to preserve the authors original intended meaning, which are simply written using the language of present, as opposed to the more literal or formal translations, which attempt, as much as possible, to be a word for word translation, but to still make sense, like the New American Standard Version, which is the most literal word for word translation today, I in fact use many translations in my study of the word of God, (for serious study I do not recommend using translations (((exclusively))) like the NIV or NLT, but would encourage you to use a more literal translation like the ESV or NASB and I would also recommend, if your familiar with it and like it, the King James. I actually don't own an NIV version, except for an electronic version on my phone. I do in fact I highly recommend the NLT and the NIV to new believers, especially those who weren't raised reading the King James and aren't familiar with the meanings of many of the unusual 17TH century words. I mean honestly Jeshua how often in your daily life do you speak as they did back then? My twain point, :), is that the King James wasn't a radically "new", or "better" translation, why? Because the King James translators had such a high regard for the Tyndale translation that they had a "if it isn't broke don't fix it" attitude toward it. Jeshua, the King James Translation is 90% William Tyndale, did you know that? And the Tyndale translation is about 70% John Wycliffe. Now let's think about that, Tyndale died in 1536 and Wycliffe died in 1384, your King James translation is 90% based on the available manuscripts and archaeological discoveries that happened before the mid 16TH century! Those are the true facts, I encourage you to check it out, I would highly recommend the book by Josh McDowell, A New Evidence that Demands a Verdict", it will enlighten you on exactly how we got our present day Bible. If you aren't interested in reading a big book, but you are interested in the topic let me know I can send you links to sites with free audio recordings on the topic and I would be happy to spend as much time with you on that topic as you would like, I have spent the last 6 years studying that specific topic, it has a significant influence on my realization that the church was not what it claimed to be. I assure you that if your understanding of how the Bible came to be, is based on what the LDS church has taught you, what you have been taught about the matter is not the truth, and I would hope that you are more interested in the truth, even more than wanting what you believe to be true. Bottom line Jeshua is that you are greatly limiting your study of God's Holy Word when you limit yourself to just the King James. Many many manuscripts have been found since that translation was done, which is based on the Textus Receptus, manuscripts that are older and nearer to the originals, better manuscripts that weren't even know to exist when the King James Translators did their beautiful, highly regarded, (by me too) translation. I would encourage you to think about how the Roman Catholic church kept the word of God from the common person for over 1100 years? They did it by only having it in a language that the common man didn't now, Latin, but that all changed with the Reformation and the invention of the printing press by Johanns Gutenburg in 1450 and a monk named Martin Luther. He exposed teaching that had been held by the peoples as true, but were ignorant of the facts and only knew what they had been told by their leadership.

With that idea in mind I would like to share twain scriptures with you, Luke 12:2 "Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known." and John 8:32 "...and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Now back to John/Psalm's. Jeshua, I like the way that you broke it down and so in keeping with that, please let us take a closer look at those verses, in the light of the Holy Word of God and the Holy Son of God Himself. I will try to keep this as simple and short as possible and I hope that you understand that I honestly feel that you are absolutely worth the effort to discuss these important issues.

In John 10, In order to establish a proper understanding of the verses that we are talking about (verses 34,35) we MUST look at the context of the verses, and the only way that you can do that is by reading several verses before and after, there is a basic rule that you should always read 10-20 verses before and after a verse to gain a proper understanding, to understand the context. So Jesus is teaching something that a culture that was all about the raising of flocks of sheep. A culture that was very familiar with everything about raising sheep, and Jesus being the Greatest teacher that there is, using the things in the daily lives of those that He was speaking to, so that they might misunderstand Him! Starts out in verse 1,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber."

A sheepfold was a place or area that was specifically for the purpose of housing sheep, it could be a built structure or even just an area surrounded on three sides by walls, like a small canyon where there was only one way in or out, "the door", that the sheep could, or anything else for that matter, get in or out of. It is, to this day, a place where a Shepard could put his sheep at night to protect them from thieves and predators. It had a person who owned or operated it, who guarded it and the sheep that were in it, after the sheep's Shepards dropped them off. It was sometimes a business, the Shepard would pay to leave his sheep there. Many Shepard's would leave their herds of sheep there all mixed together. So Jesus is painting a picture for those who He is talking to that they would understand as being familiar with the process. He is saying that anyone who tries to get into the sheep fold any other way, other than through the door, is a thief and a robber. He is building up to the greater point to follow that He, Jesus, is the door, the only way into the sheep fold, or Kingdom of God, and that if you think that you have another way you are nothing but a thief and a robber.
Verse 2,
"But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep."
Only the True Shepard enters right through the door, the fakes are trying to do it some other way. They can't enter through the door, they would be caught by the gatekeeper, How?, because the sheep won't answer to them when the phony calls to them, and then he would be found out as a fake, a thief, a robber!
Verse 3,
"To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."
The gate keeper who knows the true Shepard, because the true Shepard was the one who dropped the herd off and entrusted the sheep into the care of the one who ran the sheep fold or the gatekeeper. The gate keeper will only open the gate to the real Shepard's of all the sheep. Now here is a very interesting thing, the Shepard spent so much time with the sheep in his herd that they actually knew the sheep individually! AND the sheep knew and would only respond to the voice and commands of their Shepard! Jeshua, sheep are completely, absolutely dependent on the Shepard for EVERYTHING, They are literally the only domesticated animal that is like that! They will die if left to their own! It is a picture or "type" that Jesus is painting of how we are in our natural state and our relationship with Him! It gets better, so please don't give up reading this:) The Shepard could call to the sheep in his care and they, and only they, would respond to the Shepard, none of the other sheep in the sheep fold would respond to him! (Verse 5) and follow the Shepard out of the sheep fold back to the grazing grounds!
Verse 4
"When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. "
Jeshua, all the other domesticated animals are driven to make them go where you want. Horses, Cattle, all except Sheep! They follow their Shepard! The Shepard goes before the herd and looks for anything that might hurt the sheep, predators, holes, whatever it is, the Shepard is in front of the herd of sheep! A beautiful picture of how are Great Shepard want His sheep to follow Him.
Verse 6
"This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. "
Figure of speech, a parable. Jesus uses parable all the time to teach, the problem is that He is almost always teaching a spiritual thing and we as humans in our natural un-regenerated state, not being " spiritually born again" (John 3), don't have the ability to understand Jesus teachings. The Jews didn't understand Him because they were not, even though they were very very religious and "spiritual" were always thinking in physical terms, not spiritual terms. So Jesus usually explains His parables to His disciples, because they didn't have the illumination of the Holy Spirit yet! They don't get Him, the Holy Spirit, until Jesus goes back to Heaven at Pentecost. Jesus said that we don't have that illumination until we are born again by the Holy Spirit because of our faith in Him.(We can talk about that later if you want).
Verse 7
"So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. "
Jeshua, this is cool. At the sheep fold, the gatekeeper would guard the opening of the sheep fold. In the wild when a Shepard would find a spot that he could use as sheep fold, like a small canyon or an area where the sheep could be confined into an area and there was only one way out for the sheep or for anything to get in, like a robber or a predator, the Shepard would literally lay down on the ground in the area, so that any sheep that would get out or anything that would want into the sheep fold would have to literally go over the Shepard! They still do this to this very day over there!
Verse 8
"All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. "
A reference to all the false teachers, but the true followers of the True Shepard's sheep didn't listen to them! Because they only hear their Shepard's voice (vs 4,5) There were many who had proclaimed to be the prophesied Messiah, many who claimed to be Jesus, just as scripture plainly states that there will be many in the last day that will also proclaim to be the Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for to this day. Many will follow these false teachers being deceived and will go to Hell, because they didn't listen to the True Shepard's voice, the Holy Word of God!
Verse 9
"I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. " HOLY COW! Do you see the spiritual teaching that Jesus is giving! We just went from a discussion about sheep and the sheep fold and all that, to "IF ANYONE ENTERS BY ME *****HE WILL BE SAVED*****Are we learning something spiritual or physical from the LORD? There is much to the phrase "and go in and out and find pasture" but I will save that for another time.
Verses 10 through 18 are sooooo full and rich in teaching that it would take pages to give them the attention that they deserve, but if you read it carefully the context the "what it is all about" is salvation, Jesus is talking about saving souls! And the climax of His teaching on the subject of saving souls is verse 30. Up to that point Jesus is talking about the miracles that He has been doing, the signs and wonders of His ministry, the very things that validate Him as exactly Who He was claiming to be. He is claiming to be equal with God! Which to a Jew, who only believed in and worshiped One God, that meant to that Jew that Jesus was claiming to be that God, standing there in front of them in the flesh! To a Jew there was Only One True God, the God of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob, the God who spoke to Moses and gave them the law, the God that gave them their scripture! This man, Jesus was claiming equality and therefore to be that God!
The Jews that He was talking to understood exactly what Jesus was claiming, they picked up stones to kill Him, but before that started, Jesus asks them a question, He asks them why are you stoning me for all these good works that I have been doing? (vs 32).  The Jews reply to Jesus is that they aren't going to stone Him because of the things that Jesus has been doing, but they are going to stone Him because Jesus being a man made Himself equal with God. (vs33)
Finally we get to verse 34.
"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? "
Jesus is pointing out the irony that they, the Jews, are going to stone Jesus because He claimed to be equal with God when in their own scripture it says that "they are gods"! Twain things to take note of here Jeshua, first that Jesus, a religious Jew, Who is talking to religious Jews, claims to be the author of the scriptures!!!!!!!! Now think about that, Who gave the scripture to them, through Moses? The One True God! Jesus is claiming to be that God Who spoke to Moses and gave Moses the scripture! Twain point, Jesus quotes the scripture that He claims to have authored, and cites Psalm 82:6. The point that Jesus is making is not that they are True Deity, they are not True Gods, Jesus is pointing out the irony and arrogance of these men who are about to kill Jesus, Who has been doing all these miracle and saying all these remarkable things and claiming to be equal with God, that in their own scripture they are referred to as gods! Do you see it?
He makes that perfectly clear in verse 35 and 36
"If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken-- do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"
Note again what Jesus says about the scripture, "It CANNOT be broken"!!! It is true, it never lies, it never fails, it is as reliable as God because its Author is God! The Jews that Jesus was talking to had this very regard for the scripture, it was Holy and undeniable to them, as it should be to us today, Jesus points out the irony in verse 36, "Why do you guys say that I am blaspheming, and pick up stones to kill me, because I said I am the Son of God" when your own scripture, which all you guys believe completely, says that you guys are gods? Do you see it Jeshua? Then Jesus continues on in verse 37 to 42 saying, "hey guys if your not going to believe Me then at least take a look at all the things that have been going on around here lately, like people are having their sight restored, being brought back to life, etc, and believe that I Am Who I say that I am because of those things. (The Ken translation) Just read it Jeshua!

NOW!!! You take a look at Psalm 82, let the Old Testament speak for itself, let's not read something into the text that was never there and never taught. It is easy it is only 8 verses of a song.
Asaph, who wrote the Psalm, not David, was the music director for King David. The Bible actually teaches us a lot about Asaph. But let's just look at the verses for now. Jeshua, it is a song, it is poetry, do you read and understand poetry the same way that you read and understand a text that is a historical narrative? I hope not. It is painting a picture for us. Of God, the Only True God Who is sitting as the Devine Authority over all! , including these gods that are going to be talked about in the very next verse.
Verse 1
"A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "
Verse 2
""How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah "
Asaph is asking the rhetorical question about these men who have been put in a place by the True God as the judges or rulers over the peoples who are Gods representatives over the people, who are acting in the place of the True God as gods or judges or rulers, or in the Hebrew the word gods is "elohim", these judges or gods, have become wicked and are unjustly pronouncing judgements because of their wickedness and turning away from the True Gods Judgements. They are showing partiality in their judgements, favoring the wicked.
Verses 3 and 4
"Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute."
Asaph cries out to these wicked men who have been put in this position of ruler or judge. Calling out for them to judge righteously! To stop ignoring the weak, fatherless, to stop ignoring the poor and needy.
Verse 5
"They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken."
Who is it that is walking in darkness? Who is it that doesn't have knowledge or understanding? Who is it that because of them the foundations of the earth are shaken? Jeshua, it is the wicked gods, the wicked rulers or judges! When rulers or judges who are presided over by the True God and are supposed to be ruling as God wants but instead are ruling wickedly and unjustly, they under gird and destroy the moral order that has been established by the True God. Just think about that in today's world. What happens when an authority, whether a police officer, or even worse a Supreme Court Judge is caught in a situation where they are payed off or make a judgement that is partial to a party rather than a righteous judgment? All heck breaks loose and the trust is broken. That is exactly what Asaph is writing about here.
Verse 6
"I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;"
It goes back to God speaking in the first person, "I said", You are gods" These judges or gods over the people, were ultimately set up in that position by The True God, we see that in Psalm 2, Romans 13:1-7. The True God invests His authority in human leaders for the stability of the entire universe! "Sons of the Most High", in the Hebrew culture to be referred to as "the son of" meant that you represented the father, you exhibited the same characteristics as, the same values as, etc. That is why in verses like John 8:44 Jesus refers to some of the religious Jewish leaders as being of their father the Devil.
These humans who were put into this place of authority and leadership as judges over the people should have been exhibiting the values and should have been representing the True God who invested His authority to them. But they didn't they were wicked and so God reminds them that.....
Verse 7
"nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."
The God giveth and God taketh away! God can revoke that authority any time He wants and reminds them that while they may think pretty highly of themselves, that they are humans and will die like all humans do! And "fall like princes", The unjust rulers may just experience the violent deaths that often accompanied tyrants! If you want to apply the last part as a reference to Satan, your going to have to make that connection for me, I don't see anything in the text that is referring to Satan, but regardless the point is that these gods "will die like men" they are just humans, nothing more.
Verse 8
"Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations! "
The Psalmist, Asaph, returns to ask God, the True God, to "arise, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations" He is crying out for the future day when justice is established and all this wickedness and sin are forever gone from the earth.

The other point that must be addressed Jeshua is, were either the men who were referred to as gods referred in Psalm 82 or were the men who Jesus was talking to in John 10, actually gods? Were they Deity? Do true Gods die? Do true Gods rule or judge unjustly? Are True Gods wicked?

Jeshua, I am hope you understand that I am not trying to come off as a smarty pants or anything, I was taught exactly the same stuff you have been taught while I was growing up in the LDS church. Jeshua, please don't blow off our conversation. I know how upsetting all this is. I don't know why you think that I have a spirit of contention, I assure you that I don't. I certainly wouldn't take several hours on what is one of only a hand full of Saturdays that I have had off from work in the last 10 years,  to just be a contentious "anti Mormon" to prove something to you! Does that even make sense to you? I do it because, regardless of what you think, I care very much about you knowing the Truth and knowing the facts. What you do with them is entirely up to you, but I will someday be held accountable for everything that I have said to you, I take that very very seriously. I also take seriously the command of the LORD Jesus Christ to proclaim the gospel to all who will hear it. I hope you will hear it Jeshua, many many people are praying for you and our conversation. People care about you whether you believe it or not, there is no contention in it.

Have you considered that your feelings of contention and that our conversation being evil may just be the Holy Spirit convicting you of the Truth that I am sharing with you. I hope that you might consider that the spirit of contention that you feel may just be your conditioned response to what the LDS church has told you all your life to not talk about these things, to only read and study what they give to you, remember how the Roman Catholic church controlled what the people knew? They did it by controlling the information that they had.

Jeshua, I have no quarrels with you about verses like John 3:16, I do not disregard or consider your testimony that you ended with in your second email as invalid. But if a testimony made us right, then everyone one is right and this is all a big waste of time. I hope that your sincerity doesn't fool you into believing that just because a person is sincere that they are right about something. Truth is not a subject thing, Truth is absolutely true for everyone, everywhere all the time. Truth is discovered not invented. I have only proclaimed to you the Truth, supported by the facts and histories and by the Holy Scripture itself. You may not like it, but please don't disregard it just because you don't like it. That is exactly what Satan would want you to do, I hope you see that.

Bottom line is that the issue is not one of sincerity. It is one of Truth. It is one of idolatry verses worshiping the True God in Truth. It is a matter of there being One God or many gods. It is a matter of heeding the word of God Himself when He bears His testimony in Isaiah 43:10-11 ..before Me there were NO Gods formed, neither shall there be after Me...Beside Me there is NO God! verses the words of Joseph Smith who said in 1844 ....you have got to learn how to become gods yourselves...the same as all the Gods have done before you.
It's about the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23, which I know you know. Many, who are very sincere will hear those words Jeshua, but those who are referred to in verse 24 are those who will not hear them.

"Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. "

Jeshua, I hope and pray that you will listen to His words! Not mine or any other mans.

I love you buddy and I hope that you will continue the conversation, and we can talk about some of the other things that matter. Ultimately I pray that you will want to hear the message that God has for you. The True Gospel of Jesus Christ, based on the sure word of the Only True Sure God.
Ken

What authority does the Word of God have in your life?

This is a conversation that I have been having with an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints through e-mail. In its entirety up to this point.

Jeshua m.to me,

Jun 21, 2011
The mind is a fascinating thing, no matter how much I tell you that the ski is blue or that the sun exist you won't believe me.
Hi, my name is Jeshua, and you or someone else, gave my roommate a pamphlet titled some questions to ponder. Well, I personally have gone through and correctly answered every one of them and I am still convinced that you either don't read the bible well enough or that you have not desired to really know the truth about your God, His atonement, or your roll in His plan.
Now, you may think that I sound angry in this email, I am not, as a matter of fact, I have talked with Ryan Turner, Aaron Shafovaloff, and Chip Thompson and Jamie's parents also; I know them all pretty well and I have an alright time talking to them.
If you are interested, and I am not joking, I mean that if you are really interested in the truth about what you have asked us Mormons these questions to ponder, and not as a rhetorical question, but as an ernest (sp) quest to know why we don't think the way you think, then email me with a digital copy of the questions in the pamphlet; and I will give you an honest answer to each one.
And you better take into consideration the responses I give before you make a reprint, I have a feeling that you have this pamphlet you probably already hold in your mind as an absolute debunk of the Mormon faith, well in that case you are one who is in disbelief of the existence of the sun and must therefore have no truth in you.
I do not expect you to change your beliefs as a result of my answers, I would only ask that you, and please spread the word, don't ask these same questions anymore; find new ones!
Jeshua

Jeshua,
Thanks for taking the time to write. I would love to discuss these very important issues with you.
A little background on me, I was borne and raised in the LDS church, married in the Temple, I have served faithfully in many callings in the church, including Elders Quorum Exec Sec and 2nd Councilor, etc, etc, etc.
If you don't mind I would like to discuss and understand your conclusions on number 15 in the pamphlet. But if you would rather express your thought about on of the others that is fine too.
Ken

If that is the one that you wish me to answer; then I will answer it. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple.
Jeshua

That is a statement, not even yours, not an answer. I would ask you what support did Joseph Smith give, other than revelation, that supported his statement that God was once a mere mortal man, like us? I understand his conclusion, but do not understand how he came to it. Are we only to accept his conclusion, based only on his revelation? Is that loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength? Why do you believe him?
Ken

My dear Ken, that was not the answer, you are correct though, it was a statement; and I will answer it in due course. I want to respect your desire to know and give it some real thought and ponder the question in my heart. And I will give you the answer.
Jeshua

Sounds great, take your time.
Ken

15. Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book off Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was he always God?
Now I will begin to answer this question. So the answer must be no to "Did God change?" and no to "Or was he always God?" neither of those answers will do here; it is a matter more simple; can a grown man be born again? can a full grown man reenter his mother's womb?
(Genesis 1:26) Who is God talking to when he says: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"? does everything done by God have a purpose? Does God do anything without a purpose? So if the answer is that God does nothing save he has a purpose than God must have a great purpose in making man like God; like Himself!
I think that I have given you enough to find out the rest of the answer on your own! Why do you assume that unchangeable and always mean the same thing! God never changes that is true! And what has God done! Was Jesus a mortal man subject to all that any human has ever been subjected to and more! Did Jesus not die for all of us? Did He not raise Himself triumphantly in the resurrection and thus putt on incorruption! Is this a change? Was Jesus God while he was a baby? Yet His body changes from a child to an adult. So many changes! Yet one thing never changes, and that is His identity. Likewise who God is now will never change from all eternity to all eternity! So what is the big deal!
Let me ask you another question: how fast is the speed of light?
Jeshua

Jeshua,
Would it be fair of me to say that the LDS doctrine of the nature of God is based primarily on the first vision? Isn't that where your going with the Genesis 1 verse? When did the first vision take place? When did Joseph Smith reveal the nature of God to be once a mere mortal man, like us? Why the long time between the first vision and the revelation that God is an exalted man?
Explain the relationship between the comments of Nicodemus to the LORD and the nature of God please.Your understanding of Genesis is based solely on what you have been taught by the LDS church. The problem is that they are the only ones who come up with that understanding, and they only do it by first minimizing the reliability of the Bible and by disregarding the meaning given in the Bible itself, by proclaiming a doctrine that a living prophet supercedes the written scripture. How does a Jew understand that verse. What does image mean? Your definition of "image" isn't the one that is important, the one that matters is the writers, in this case Moses'. Did/Does thousands of years of Judaism understand "image" to mean a physical representation? Read it carefully, let us make man in our image. Does it say that God is in the image of a man, no it doesn't. It says that we are made in His image, that that means a physical representation not only disregards scripture but also disregards the meaning of the Semitic languages. Wouldn't you say that there is much more to God than just the idea of a body? If you would like to know how the Jews understood this verse we can talk about it, let me know. Have you read all the verses about the nature of God in the Bible, verses like Colossians 1:15? "The image of the invisible God"...
Before we jump into the "speed of light", lets see if any common ground can be reached on the nature of God, because as the LORD Jesus Christ said in the Gospel of John, Eternal life is to know You The One True God and His Son Jesus Christ. John 17"3
Ken

You deny the first vision, and you would tarnish the prophet's good name to say that his account was unreliable because of some accusations made in journals of some of the saints or otherwise apostate leaders. So would the Satan have you believe that God's form would resemble a being more like himself: an invisible spirit!
God uses the weak to bring about his great works as is spoken by Paul the Apostle.
Let me ask you which God is greater: A god who can cover the sin and save you, or a God who can redeem mankind and make him (man) equal with Himself? Which is a greater gift? Would the greater God give a lesser gift?
Why are we then said to be the offspring of God? (Acts 11:27) and joint-hairs of Christ (Romans 8:16-19). And what does likeness mean as well as image, well if the word image was too vague, there was also inserted LIKENESS! If a child can comprehend it then why can't you; it is because of pride! All you need is to ask with no farther inclination your own young child, and she will speak the truth of it to you, ask in faith.
Jeshua

Have I said that I deny the first vision? Actually I don't. I believe that Joseph Smith did have a vision. Your statement that "the account is unreliable because of some accusations made in journals of some of the saints or otherwise apostate leaders", does not reflect the truth. The official first vision account is actually the seventh account of 9 accounts. And in Joseph Smiths own handwritten account in 1832 he only mentions seeing Jesus, along with other contradictions, such as the issue of whether all the churches were apostate, anyway, he doesn't give any account about the vision being of the Father and the Son until 1838, and there is never any account or any teaching that the Father was an exalted man until the King Follett Discourse in 1844. Those are the facts.
I believe that your referring to Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. " But your not looking at the context of the verse Jeshua. Paul isn't teaching a divine truth, as the LDS church claims and therefore uses this verse as a proof text. Paul is using a quote of a Pagan Poet, Aratus, to make his (Pauls) point of the absurdity of idolatry. Just look at what Paul is doing, he comes into town where idols are everywhere!, he starts in in verse 23 and uses the inscription on an alter "to the unknown god" as a starting point to preach about Jesus. He starts in verse 24, "hey guys this God that you worship, let me tell you about him", then he goes on to explain through verse 27 all about the True Living God, Who can be found if they would just seek Him, then Paul gets to verse 28 where he quotes another Createn poet, Epimenides, when Paul says "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." he IS teaching a truth, but it isn't that we are literal children of God, it is a rhetorical statement made by THEIR own poet that Paul uses to make his next point, in verse 29, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." He is saying, "hey guys do you see how the absurdity that if, as your own poets have proclaimed, that we are offspring of God, all these gold and silver and stone idols are, how absurd all these graven images made by man are?"
Do you see that Jeshua? It is a verse that is taken out of context and used to support a teaching that is contrary to scripture. Paul even goes on to tell them that, "hey guys God has been looking the other way on this, but the time has come for you to stop your idolatry and repent and believe in the truth, and why"? (verses 29-30)
You see Jeshua, in order for that verse to be teaching that we are the literal offspring of God, we would have to deny the scriptures that say that we are adopted into the family of God by our faith in Jesus, like John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:"
And we would have to exclude verses that read that Jesus Christ created ALL things, He is uncreated, He is the Eternal Son, the only begotten (only the LDS church adds "in the flesh" to that statement) verses like John 1:1-3, 14. Romans 9:5, Collosians 1:13-19, EVEN in your own scripture 3 Nephi 9:15.
All of the verses like the one you posted, Romans 8:16-19 would require a great deal of background scripture to properly understand. But the bottom line is that only those who have placed their complete trust in Jesus, who have given up on trying to establish their own self righteousness are those who Paul is referring too. You can go back to 1 Cor 6:19-20, 12:13-14. We could make a long list of verses that show that the "we", "us" is a reference to the body of believers, those who are in Christ, who have identified themselves with Jesus through confession of faith and baptism because of the forgiveness of sins. Just spend some time in Paul's epistles, especially Romans and you will easily see that.
"Image", "Moses spoke to God face to face", "likeness", "finger of God", "right hand" etc, etc, etc, once again all verses that are used to express something that they never did. And once again the only way that those verses can mean that the Father has a body as Joseph Smith began to teach in 1844, is if we ignore other scriptures, like Colossians 1:15 where Paul writes about Jesus that He is; " Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" "the invisible God", even a child can understand that;), we have to ignore verses like Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2,9, Acts 14:15, 1 Kings 8:27, Jeremiah 23:24. John 4:20-24, etc.
Your remarks about how even a child knows the truth about the living God is interesting, if you have kids Jeshua, ask them if they think that the Father was once a man like us and see what God has placed on their hearts.
You said "Let me ask you which God is greater: A god who can cover the sin and save you, or a God who can redeem mankind and make him (man) equal with Himself? Which is a greater gift? Would the greater God give a lesser gift?"
Jeshua, the problem with your idea is that the whole teaching is contrary to scripture. It is a premise based on a false beginning. God never says that He will make man equal with Himself. In fact scripture teaches exactly the opposite. In fact God teaches us that He will not give His glory to another. He testifies to us, as His witnesses in Isaiah 43:10 that before Him there were no Gods formed and neither will there be after Him. In Isaiah 44:6,8 He proclaims the same thing again, as the scripture does in many many places throughout the entire Bible.
Ken

What do you believe about the first vision then?
I have to say something that is really important and I want you to understand, so if you wouldn't mind restating what I am saying before you make any rebuttal then I will consider myself understood. Ken, my belief is that the doctrine taught by those of your faith, meaning; what you would call true Christians, and I might add to what you believe that Christ taught and to what you believe that Paul also taught; is that the most important principle of the gospel is faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. And I would add how mercy and repentance and forgiveness works into all that, that they are all by the grace of God and cannot be earned.
Jeshua

Jeshua,
If I was to restate what your saying to you, to see if I properly understand you, I would summarize what you said as follows; that you believe that what I am saying and what most of the Evangelical Christians would also say is: 1-"is that the most important principle of the gospel is faith on the Lord Jesus Christ." 2. " and only by the grace of God can mercy, repentance and forgiveness be obtained, and that it cannot be earned."
Now assuming that I understood you correctly. I would answer that statement about what you believe as, no, I do not believe, nor do those who are authentic Christians say that the most important principle of the gospel is faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. The second half of your statement needs clarification. We would need to define terms to better understand each other. But mercy is simply not getting what we deserve. Repentance is a choice, we could discuss exactly how that state, that place in their life, that the person is in, when they repent, comes about. But there is a human response that leads them to turn toward and accept the message or reject the message, in regard to repentance.
The third point about forgiveness, I would argue that the scripture plainly, explicitly clearly, teaches that forgiveness cannot be earned, and in fact I would argue that the scripture explicitly teaches that trying to earn forgiveness, from God, because of our sin against a Holy God, actually nullifies the possibility of being forgiven.
The main problem here Jeshua, is that I would, as I believe any authentic Christian would do so to, if they understood that different meanings that the LDS church has for words like, faith, gospel, mercy, repentance. And particularly if the Christian was familiar with the LDS beliefs about who Jesus is and what the Nature of God is, it would be a far more important matter to first and foremost, discuss those matters, before getting into a discussion about mercy or the mode of baptism or priesthood authority or a complete apostasy.
John 17:3 reads, Jesus speaking,, "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
I would argue that the bottom line is that if the LDS beliefs about Who God is and Who Jesus is isn't correct, then a faithful, even sincere LDS member doesn't have the One True God, the One True Son and therefore doesn't have eternal life. If God the Father was never a mere mortal man, then you have the wrong God. If Jesus isn't the spirit brother of Lucifer, then you have the wrong Jesus, honestly does any of the other stuff really matter at that point?
So back to your point, I would say that the most important principle of the gospel is faith on the True LORD Jesus Christ. Even Jesus warns us about that in Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
And then the LORD Jesus tell us how we are to know whether we have the True LORD in verse 24 ,"Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
"Hears these words and does them"... Jeshua, who's words are you hearing? Are you hearing the LORD Jesus Christ who says "unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins"? Or are you listening to a man who said the very same thing that Satan said to Eve in the Garden, "hath God said?"
I can pile on the scripture that shows that God the Father was never once a mere mortal man. I can pile on the scripture that says that the Son is Eternal and has always been with the Father and has always been the Son. I can pile on the scripture that says that there is only One True God, Who is unique in that He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet One Being Who is the Eternal Living God. I can pile on the scripture that says that forgiveness of sin is by grace alone through faith alone in the Son of God and believing that He did it all on the cross. But unless you trust the word of God, none of that will mean much to you. As long as you place your trust more in men then in God to keep His promises and in God being faithful to His word, none of that will mean much to you. Unless you are willing to actually study the word of God, rather than accepting the interpretations of scripture by men, I'm not really sure where to go with you
So I ask you, where do you want to start, I suggest you take a look at the scriptures that refute the teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, just like us.
Ken

So let me start please, where are these scriptures that refute the teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, just like us? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't mortal and could not die? Because, as I recall he had to die on the cross in order to provide the atonement, are you saying that Christ wasn't made of flesh and bone? And what about the resurrection and Luke 24:39. Why was Christ to take on Flesh and Bone after his resurrection; if not to keep it? And if Christ keeps the body will he later discard it? Why is Christ choosing to take it; if to later throw it away? Or is it that the perfected/resurrected form of God to have a body like man's own is actually His own likeness and His own image? Why would God make us like Him if not to inherit all that He the True God has? Please explain this too me because I can't think of another way to put it to you so that it is more simple!
Jeshua

God, the Father, was never a mere mortal man, like us. Of course Jesus was a 100% man and 100% God the Eternal Son, both uncreated, both Eternal, both one in purpose, Both One Being. Separate distinct persons, as is the Holy Spirit, what LDS call the Holy Ghost. Because Mormonism makes a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost, even though there is no such distinction in the Bible.
Ken

Ken,
That is so confusing, I think that I will just stick to the truth instead of the cockamamie idea that you unbelievers make up in your head; while regarding some scriptures really well; you are neglecting the more weightier ones. And you call yourselves Christians! If you were Christians you would come to know Christ.
Give me scripture! And I will give you scripture, and keep your interpretation to yourself!
I have two scriptures for you, read them, ponder them, and come to understanding, and root out the evil in you Ken!
Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48
Jeshua

What, exactly, are you saying that I am making up?
Ken

Well, to be frank, Ken, these three things have you no scripture to back them up!
"God, the Father, was never a mere mortal man, like us."
"Of course Jesus was a 100% man and 100% God the Eternal Son, both uncreated, both Eternal, both one in purpose, Both One Being."
"Separate distinct persons, as is the Holy Spirit, what LDS call the Holy Ghost. Because Mormonism makes a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost, even though there is no such distinction in the Bible."
Okay let me be a little more clear; since in times like these misunderstandings seem to be what is getting the point and not the matter.
First: "God, the Father, was never a mere mortal man, like us."
The word "mere" shouldn't have been used. It is degrading the word man; and since God created man in his own image and likeness, you shouldn't put the connotation that you did.
Second: you are not a scientist why are you using percents. And I never remembered "Eternal Son" used, since that is what you have been arguing about this whole time; though Jesus Christ is referred to as the very Eternal Father.
And third: "Separate distinct persons, as is the Holy Spirit, what LDS call the Holy Ghost. Because Mormonism makes a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost, even though there is no such distinction in the Bible."
There is a distinction between them in the Bible.
Jeshua

So that we are perfectly clear Jeshua, are you saying that the LDS church does NOT teach that Heavenly Father was once a man as we, you and I, are?
Second point, are you saying that Jesus was, at the time of His earthly ministry, less than full deity?
Jesus being referred to as the "very Eternal Father" is called modelism, it is only found in the Book of Mormon and was later redefined by LDS leaders to mean something other than a reference to the Father in Heaven. The Bible never teaches that the Father is the Son or that the Son is the Father. That is an early 1st century false teaching that is actually refuted by early Christianity.
There is no distinction between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit in the Bible. I challenge you to show support for that idea. In the King James Translation, the KJV translators choose the word "Ghost" rather than "Spirit", Mormonism later redefined a distinction between the two because the LDS church teaches that the Holy Ghost is not omnipresent. But that His influence, His spirit, can be everywhere at once. So His Spirit is omnipresent, but He isn't. That is a teaching that is not found in the Bible. I would encourage you to look at the words in the Greek texts.
Clarify those and I will be happy to show that indeed everything I said in the previous email is supported by scripture, plainly and clearly. And simply, the word "mere" is only to make the distinction between Jesus, who lived a mortal life as no man ever did or ever will, a perfect sinless life on earth. It would be wrong of me to say "God was never a man", because Jesus is God and Jesus was a man. But the Father, according to scripture, even your own scripture, the Book of Mormon, teaches that the Father has never been a man, a mere man, a God-man, or any other kind of man. Just the opposite is the case, the Father has never not been God, fully God, eternally God.
Ken

Ken,
I must apologize, I have had the spirit of contention with me while I have been communicating with you these past few weeks, and I feel that I must step back and say that I do not have a perfect understanding of all truth, and I am glad that I don't have to hold up any reputation before men that I can't say anything incorrect or false from time to time.
Now, let me reason with you as a man and speak as plainly as I can. Do you hold the words in the Bible to be infallible? Do you hold Paul to be infallible? Can they the prophets or apostles speak something in a time that is given as their own opinion? And most importantly is it possible for men like you and me to misinterpret the words that are given us by Jesus Christ or prophets and apostles. Was Jesus not constantly correcting the twelve in their backward ways of thinking! Did He not tell peter on many occasions that he must change his thinking; like when washing his feet, or that when asking concerning the meaning of a parable, the reply was are you yet also without understanding.
And the answer is yes, we all fall short of fully comprehending the designs of God. The thing to do is have faith and grow in the brotherly love that Jesus Christ taught, casting aside envy, feeding the hungry, helping the poor, comforting those who stand in need of comfort, and stripping ourselves of pride.
Ken I am interested in your life, and what your story is for leaving the church. I guess that you believe that Jesus Christ came to visit Joseph Smith in the first vision, or do you believe that only an angel visited Joseph Smith. So, if you will let me know, I am interested.
Jeshua

Jeshua,
No worries, I understand that conversations about things that are so dear to us can be very difficult, especially when a person feels that what they hold sacred is being attacked. I understand that and have been in that position myself. But the bottom line is that truth is absolute, we can ignore it, but it doesn't change it, truth is truth regardless of what we believe or want to believe.
Yes the Bible is absolutely infallible, whatever it says about any subject is absolutely true. Paul, no he is a man, he is infallible, just as all men are. Yes prophets or apostles could speak something that was their own opinion, but not in scripture. You see 2 Timothy 3;16-17 reads that scripture is God Breathed, elsewhere the scripture plainly teaches that the author is the Holy Spirit, using men with all their inadequacies and with their vocabularies, as tools to reveal the will, nature and purposes of God.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."
Jeshua, how much scripture is God breathed? All? or most?
Absolutely, it is possible for men to misinterpret the scripture. It is possible to take it out of context, to twist it to support our beliefs. To say that something means something that it never meant for our purposes. So here is the question Jeshua, who determines the meaning of the text? The author, the reader or the text itself? Think about that. If you wrote something to convey a message, do you as the author determine the meaning or do I as the reader determine the meaning?
Yes, Jesus was correcting both His disciples and those who were following Him all the time. But the question is do we have something today that they didn't have? Do we have a greater revelation than they did of what was going on then? What were the disciples, who were all except Judas, Galileans expecting, waiting for? Was Jesus what they were expecting or were they believing that the Messiah was going to do something else? Exactly what was Jesus correcting them about? That is what is important to understand, not that He was correcting them.
I agree we do all fall short as mere humans in our understanding of God. But there is very much that is absolutely knowable, absolutely understandable and absolutely true about God and He has given us that information clearly and plainly in the Bible.
I agree that love, caring for others, comforting others and stripping ourselves of pride are very important, but do you believe that God will forgive idolatry? Do you understand Isaiah 64:6 or John 17:3? There is no more important thing to know, than the True God, and the True Son of God and Jeshua, the bottom line my friend is that if God the Father was never a mere mortal man, if the Son is Eternal, as the Son, and not our spirit brother or the brother of Lucifer, if Eternal life with God is by Grace through faith alone and not Grace through faith plus our best efforts, then what the LDS church teaches is a path that leads to eternal destruction. I know that is tough to hear, and I know that the LDS church teaches some very pleasing things that seem very right, but those 3 teachings alone are the exact opposite to what the Bible teaches.
My story began about 6 years ago. It all started with the desire to know whether the churches claim to be the only true church on the face of the earth was true or not. I had always believed that it was, I was raised in the church. I have held honorably many callings over the years. My wife and I were married in the Mt. Timpanogos Temple 10 years ago. It started one day when I came across the TV show "The Heart of the Matter" hosted by ex-mormon Shawn McCraney. He was saying things about the church that I had never heard before, I started to take notes and started to check out his claims, the sources that he gave, etc. I was reading the defense against what he was saying on FAIR and FARMS by the LDS apologists. Sometimes I could except the explanations that were given by the LDS apologists, most of the time their explanations didn't hold up to scrutiny. I was talking to my parents about the stuff. I was talking to LDS leaders about the stuff. But the bottom line was that the LDS church didn't hold up to an honest and objective examination on many levels, particularly doctrine and history of the church. I gotta tell you that one of the real problems that I had was hearing Pres. Hinckley, while being interviewed by the San Francisco Chronicle say, when asked about the LDS belief that God the Father was an exalted man, and the Lorenzo Snow couplet, said that he wasn't sure about that teaching. FAIR and the LDS apologist went to work to come up with a plausible explanation about what Pres. Hinckley meant, but it was very clear that he was not being fully honest about what I believed and I know he believed. That really bothered me and later when clarifications were made, both by Hinckley at a fireside shortly after and by the apologists in the weeks after, there was no doubt in my mind that they were doing nothing more than damage control. All that did was send me deeper into the stuff that the church doesn't want to talk about or for its members to discover. Bottom line Jeshua is I got a library card and started to study the church, Joseph Smith and everything I could read about it all. It didn't take very long for the house of cards to come crashing down on my life. The case against the church being what it claims to be is overwhelming! Especially in regard to the first few decades of the church. I would be happy to share more of the story with you if you want, but that is pretty much the bottom line. It took a couple of years for me to have no doubt about the church being another religious system of men and not God. It took a couple of more years for me to submit to the authority of the LORD Jesus Christ, that is another whole story.
One of the things that I learned along the path was that everything that I had been taught my whole life about the reliability and accuracy of the Bible that we have in our hands today was wrong! Even BYU scholars agreed with Evangelical scholars about the accuracy and reliability of the New Testament. What we have in our hands today, in regard to the New Testament, is better than 98.7% accurate to what the original writers wrote down! Think about that Jeshua, what are the implications that that has? What are the implications if we are not missing meanings of text or text itself? What are the implications about the Joseph Smith Translation if there is not a single bit of support showing that what Smith restored was once what was written? I suggest that it changes everything!
What do I believe Smith experienced? I believe that he did have a vision, I believe that what ever he actually saw, whether an Angel, or the Son of the Father and the Son, whatever it was, was an angel of Satan. I know that is hard to hear, but here is why. The scripture states that even Satan himself and his angels can appear as angels of light. (2 Cor 11:14-15) "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."
In the book of Galatians, the Apostle Paul states that (Galatians 1:8-9) "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."
You see Jeshua, the implications that the truthfulness, the accuracy and the reliability of the Bible has are enormous. I also believe that most members of the church have never truly, honestly, objectively examined what they believe and why they believe it. I never did, I just knew that the church was true, I knew that the prophet was true, the book of Mormon was true, etc.... But knew that the way that I had chosen was right! But then again the scripture states in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death."
Jeshua, don't be afraid to examine what you believe. The Truth will set you free from religion and you can know that you have eternal life, based on what Jesus did 2000 years ago, not by trying to establish your own righteousness, but by having the righteousness of Jesus applied to you when your judged. God never refuses a sincere searching heart, it is scriptural!
Jeshua, if the church wasn't true, how would you know? Would you want to know? If it wasn't true, would you still believe in Jesus and the resurrection?
Jeshua, I know that you believe in Jesus, but do you believe Jesus? Are you trusting Him to raise you from the dead, yet you don't trust Him to keep His word? (Matthew 24:35) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
Jeshua, have you actually ever had the Biblical gospel explained to you before? Do you even know what my message is? If so why do you reject it?
Ken

Sorry, one mistake, Paul is fallible, not infallible,,,,,
Ken

Thank you Ken for telling me the part of your story that you did, I believe that you are a good man, and I think that you are correct that we as latter day saints don't read the bible enough, and I must confess that we don't nearly read our scriptures enough either; We as members of this church need correction in this matter; and my personal belief is such so that we will not leave this church. If we would truly understand better the doctrine of God then we would not leave Him. So, I will take to heart to read my scriptures more. I will read more carefully the Holy Bible, and I will read more carefully the Holy Book of Mormon, which is another testament of Jesus Christ.
I thank you for your story. I feel that if I were to investigate these things in the way you did, I would find darkness, and I would despair and shrink, I would disbelieve everything except pure mathematics, pure logic, and even then I would feel empty. I might cry out for a reason to believe as you do, but I would find no pure truth. I would find only a half truth, that half which I already know to be true, that Jesus is the Christ the Only Begotten of the Father. I would be damned for not keeping His commandments, I would not follow Him as he would ask of me, but my life would be empty, full of pain and anger towards the church, I may have a love for the members of the church, wanting them to be persuaded to Christ; I would draw near unto God with my words but my heart would be far from Him. I would not be living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and this because of a belief in being saved already because of my accepting Jesus in my life as my personal savior, believing that because I am fallible that I can only live to worship Him.
Ken forgive me, I don't know where your heart is, and I do not know your works. But this I do know, that I accept Jesus Christ in my life every day that I go to work in His kingdom, the work that I do in home teaching, and in my church services and callings, I accept Him when I try to live as He would have me live. Now, I know that trying isn't good enough, so I make it an effort to be better then I am, I make it my full purpose to keep all of the commandments, yes all of them, and I have His grace for my weakness, but I make no excuse for myself; if I did, I wouldn't be His son. One of my most favorite books is the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball. And if every member would read it and accept who they are and change their life, they would receive a knowledge of their nothingness, and of the grace of God in their righteousness, which righteousness they accomplish through the atonement of Jesus Christ: "And if men come unto me I will show them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." Ether 12:27.
We are left without excuse says Spencer W. Kimball. Because we can move mountains by faith, we can keep all of the commandments by faith also, not because we are strong, but because God is strong, therefore we must keep his commandments and ask in prayer for his guidance and help and proceed to keep all of the commandments. But remember Matthew 7. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shell be opened unto you: 8 For everyone that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. 14 Because strait is gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just. And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not. For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil. Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.
But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. Mosiah 16:1-5
Sin is a service to the devil, and repentance is a service to God, and godliness is a service to God, yes we cannot put less power to the redemption of Jesus Christ, for it is by this power we can stop sinning. And if we sin, well, that is the power of the devil manifesting himself over us. Therefore it is accountant of us to change from this carnal state and be reborn of the Spirit. We must live a life of truth, truthfulness; an honest effort to keep all of the commandments, and that by and by Christ will forgive us, we will be clean as He wills to make us clean.
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. Moroni 10:32-33.
Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth. For behold, thus said Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him. Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that you may consume it upon your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God. See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out. Mormon 9:21,25,27-29

We must all stop sinning!

Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation--behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God-- then will ye say that there is not God? The will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with hum under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day. Mormon 9:2-4,6
And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that morn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:2-10,48
Ken, though I have never met you in person, because we have struggled together in these discussions, I feel that I can come to know your heart, and how it is that you have come to fail to remain fast in the faith. I do believe that it was because you sought to learn the darkness that was being spread by those who oppose the church. I am thankful that you feel that you must spread the truth; I already know the truth that the devil spreads darkness, and if I go seeking to know what they claim then I will by and by be filled with darkness. I ask you Ken, that while you were a member of the church, did you ever dispose of your faith by reading the Bible, or was it only when reading the false words of those who have been led away after the learning of their own minds that you decided that your faith was false?
Ken, you know that God is all powerful and all knowing, and I am sure that you have asked God about all these things laid against the church and against Joseph Smith. Why do you think that the only answer that you received was that you should go after them. When God commanded men to seek the scriptures for answers, did he mean just that? Or did he mean to seek the scriptures based on the understanding of other people?
Does God not know all things that befell Joseph Smith, would God reveal to you that Joseph Smith did what he was commanded to do, if you wouldn't believe it? I am sorry for your loss in your testimony of Joseph Smith, and of the Book of Mormon. I am grateful that you still yet believe in God, and that you believe in Jesus Christ. I don't ask that you go through all those things that would be so painful for you to return. God knows what difficult feelings you have had, and he is aware of all your struggles; what would it take for you to unlearn the error? Can God do that for you; is he not a God of miracles, can he not show you your error that you have made, help you cope, and find your faith again? I tell you that he can, that if you allow the grace of God to take full sway in your life, you can come to know better your testimony that you once had, can you believe that God will make you stedfast and those fiery darts of the devil will not penetrate your faith again.
Ken, the Lord has taught me to have great hopes for you; for the Lord is mighty to save. Alma 7:14
Jeshua

Jeshua,
You are welcome. And I am not going to address every point in your very carefully and thoughtfully written response, but I did read it all very carefully.
I would disagree with you completely, as does the word of God, I am not a good man, as the Holy Word of God proclaims in 1 Kings 8:46 and in Romans 3:23 or in Romans 3:10-11. You see Jeshua the point is that we, ourselves are incapable of doing anything about it as it states in Jeremiah 13:23. I would encourage you as commit to reading your Bible to also study the matter of the reliability and accuracy of the Bible that you hold in your hands. Bottom line Jeshua, if the Bible that you hold in your hands is not missing anything, if there is absolutely no support for teaching introduced by Joseph Smith on October 15 1843 where he proclaimed and declared;
"I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors." (History of the Church 6:57) Look at that closely Jeshua, Smith breaks it down into three categories. 1. ignorant translators 2. careless transcribers and 3. corrupt priests. Jeshua, do you know if those are true statements? How would you know if they were true or not?
Jeshua, unfortunately it is true that many who find out the truth about the LDS church feel the way you describe, many profess to be Atheists or Agnostics and many rebel against God and harden their hearts, it is very sad and exactly why I feel a deep deep responsibility in my conversations with LDS members and to you to also show them that there is hope and peace and Eternal life waiting for them, indeed as the Savior proclaimed, The Truth will make you free, not free to do what ever you want, but free to live your life for the LORD, free from the uncertainty of trying to establish your own self righteousness, free to rest in the finished work of the LORD Jesus Christ on the cross.
Why do you believe that you would find darkness, despair and shrink, if you found out that the LDS church wasn't what it claimed to be? Jeshua, would you still believe in the resurrection? Do you realize that if what I am saying is true, and you repented, and accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ as given in the Bible, that you would be freed from the religious system that would actually be a path to Eternal Hell and be on the True Path of Eternal Life! While I understand the difficulties that your talking about, think it through! Who are you trying to please, God or man?
You said, "but I would find no pure truth. I would find only a half truth, that half which I already know to be true, that Jesus is the Christ the Only Begotten of the Father." Jeshua, your making an assumption based on something that presupposes the LDS church teaching that your Bible is incomplete. Think about that, again I ask you, how do you know that your Bible only contains part of the truth? What if the Bible had all the truth that you needed for eternal life with God in Heaven? What if the "half that you already know is true" is the whole truth?
Jeshua, we are all already damned for not keeping the commandments of God. Forgiveness doesn't come because we keep the commandments. The commandments are to show all of us that we are guilty before God, they are to show us that we are incapable of doing what God requires of us, they are to convict us, every single one of us on earth, past, present and future, that we are ALL guilty before God. (Romans 3:23, 1 Kings 8:46) and that because we are ALL guilty, we are all condemned to Eternal condemnation, we are ALL under the wrath of a God who demands that justice be administered, because of the law.( John 3:18, Romans 6:23, Ezekial 18:4) (See Jeshua, everything is in the Old Testament too) The condemnation already exists for everyone born, the only way to avoid the eternal condemnation is to believe the truth, to believe not just in Jesus, but to believe Jesus. Even Satan and his angels believe in Jesus and they tremble, are they saved? No, what you believe is important.(James 2:19)
Jeshua, Sincere faith without a valid object of that faith is useless.
Jeshua, the gospel is NOT keeping the commandments. The gospel is the way that God has given us to have eternal life with Him forever, a quality and a quantity of life that never ends in the very presence of God and all those who responded to that way. The commandments create the problem, the gospel fixes the problem. Keeping the commandments is our response to true faith, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20), see how that is right after the verse about Satan?, it isn't teaching that our works have anything to do with our forgiveness, James is contrasting a living faith with a dead faith. A true faith responds, and the works are an evidence of that true living faith. No true authentic Christian believes that a person can just "profess Christ" and then do whatever they want to do. Jesus said, "if you love Me keep My commandments". The real question that you need to ask is this, are the things that I am doing commandments from the LORD? Or are they the ways of men? And those questions are answered by first knowing whether your Bible is corrupt or the pure word of God, complete and infallible and sufficient for us to know everything that we need to make a decision about Jesus Christ? What if it is?
Jeshua, let the Light of Jesus shine on what you believe, let the Light of His Holy Word shine on what you believe and see if it glows brighter or if the light exposes it as darkness? The command is to love God with all your heart, might, soul and mind. Are you loving God with your mind? How do you do that?
Jeshua, read Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, The Gospel of John and tell me if what you believe lines up with what the Holy Word of God says? If you don't know if you can trust the Bible, then I recommend starting with a book call "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.
Bottom line is this Jeshua, we can go back and forth forever about other issues like baptism, priesthood, etc, etc, etc,, but the LDS church's teachings are based on a few things that MUST be true for the church to be true. One is that the Bible as we have it today is unreliable, and is missing the restored gospel of the LDS church. (1 Nephi 13), That God the Father was once a man like us. That the Son of God is one of many many true Gods, that He is our spirit brother, begotten in some way as a union between the Father and Mary, and not conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. That eternal life is gained by a combination of what Jesus did and what we do. And a few others, but honestly how much does something have to be false before it is false? All those things are teachings that are contrary to scripture and were introduced by men who proclaimed, not only that the Bible was unreliable, but that they spoke on behalf of the true God. I would ask you to consider that all of the world religious systems have one thing in common, they ALL deny the authority of the Bible. Everyone! the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, the LDS church, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Scientologist, etc, etc, etc, every single one, even the Catholic church proclaims that the Papacy is the final authority in interpreting the scripture. You cannot introduce any teaching that is contrary to the word of God, unless you first establish that the word of God is not what it claims to be, not what God claims it to be and not what Jesus claimed it to be. Jesus claimed that "heaven and earth shall pass away but My words shall not pass away" (Matt 24:35) Think about that.
Ken

(We can talk about the other points in your reply if you want to. But it is really important that you understand first that your Bible is exactly what God wants us to have, and the amazing thing Jeshua is that it is a knowable, testable, verifiable issue. You can know without any doubt that the Bible, as we have it, is nearly 99% accurate to what the original writers penned in their own handwriting, even the skeptics and Bible haters agree on that, even guys like Bart Ehrman!)
At least find out if that is true, get that book, and I can recommend many others, I spent several years studying deeply this topic, it was a deal breaker for me Jeshua, I have more to gain if the LDS church is what it claims to be, than if it isn't. Nearly my whole family is LDS. At least know the truth about Smiths claim that I posted above from the History of the Church, after that you can always accept or reject the message that I have, the message that I am waiting to share with you about how you can be forgiven of all your sin, know that you have eternal life and be born again as a child of God, saved from the eternal wrath of a Just God Who loves you so much that He sent His Son to die to redeem you forever to be with Him.

John 3:16 For God so loved Jeshua, that He gave His only begotten Son that if Jeshua believes on Him Jeshua should not perish but HAVE everlasting life"

Jeshua, I want to address a few of your other points. You posted the beatitudes, they are interesting, especially if you understand the meaning and context of the verses.
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that morn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:2-10,48
Think about that, where in the world are those who are poor in spirit, sad, meek, hungry, thirsty, persecuted, blessed? Do you understand what Jesus is teaching? Were are peacemakers, those who ARE pure in heart, merciful, embraced and accepted by the world? Is the command by the LORD to become or BE perfect? That one verse of scripture alone condemns every single person as commandment breakers. As if the Royal law of Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, didn't do it already.
Those who are "blessed" and "HAVE" eternal life are those who have been and are forgiven of sin. Only those who ARE righteous are blessed and have eternal life. Do you see any "in the future" concepts being taught there by Jesus? Or is everyone of those in the present tense?
It is interesting that you posed those verses in Matthew 7. "But remember Matthew 7. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shell be opened unto you: 8 For everyone that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
May I teach you something about those verses? What Jesus is saying, based on the Greek language, is not a one time deal. He is not saying to ask, seek, knock and it shall be given, you will find and it will be opened to you. The Greek is structured different than that. Jesus is saying to continually keep on asking, continually keep on seeking, continually keep on knocking,, and you will be answered, you will find and it will be opened up to you. Do you understand the difference? There is nothing in scripture that supports the idea that reading and praying to know if something is true is Gods way. In fact just the opposite is true. We are to study and gain knowledge then go to God with that knowledge and ask Him for wisdom in what to do with it ( James 1:5) Even Joseph Smith didn't have a proper understanding of this explicit Biblical teaching.
Jeshua, you said " I do believe that it was because you sought to learn the darkness that was being spread by those who oppose the church. I am thankful that you feel that you must spread the truth; I already know the truth that the devil spreads darkness, and if I go seeking to know what they claim then I will by and by be filled with darkness"
What I sought to learn was if the churches claims were true, were they supported by facts, history, the word of God? Was my Bible corrupt and unreliable or only reliable, "as far as it was translated correctly"? I "knew the truth" too, but when I took up the Bible and examined what I "knew" was true, it was very different than what Gods word said.
Question for you Jeshua, What exactly do you think a church set up by Satan would look like? What would His church on earth look like? Are "those who oppose the church" actually doing that, or is that just what you have been taught? How exactly would you know if "those who oppose the LDS church" were telling you a lie or the truth? Would you appeal to prayer and the confirmation by the Holy Spirit? Is that what God has commanded us to do? Or is that what the church tells you to do? How do you test that spirit? Do you test it against what you have always been taught in the chruch, or do you test it against God's word? Jeshua, how do you know that your not the one who is in darkness? Just because the church teaches such wonderful, nice, pleasing "families are forever" doctrines, like you can become a god? Jeshua, what was the lie that Lucifer told to Eve in the garden? What would the perfect church of Satan look like Jeshua? Think about it. Would everyone be saved in at least some kingdom? Would those who proved themselves worthy be able to become gods someday, like their god did? Would very very few actually go to Hell? Would all your family members who have ever lived have a chance to go to heaven? Would you continue to have families in heaven? Would you continue to be married in Heaven, are you born a literal spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Mother? The problem Jeshua, is that none of that is in the Bible, most of it isn't even in the Book of Mormon! Jesus never taught it, His disciples never taught it, the early Christian church,( before the gospel was taking out 1 Nephi 13) never taught it, but Satan HAS taught some of those things, have you thought about that? The scripture gives clear warnings against most of those teachings. Yet you believe that God spoke through a man, even though what that man taught was contrary to what God has said for thousands of years.
Jeshua, do you want to go through the "impossible gospel" of the LDS church, from your own scriptures? Do you want me to show you how even your own scripture condemns you? That unless you accept the teachings from the leadership, that is contrary to your own scriptures, you will be damned by your own sin? Why is it that if I were to show the majority of LDS members a quote from Brigham Young that they would disregard it because it was not in their "canon" of scripture, yet ALL of what they believe about their progression beyond this life, their oppurtunity to be forgiven of sins that weren't taken care of in this life will be able to be taken care of in the next, albeit a thousand times harder to do so. (Yes I have read "A miracle of Forgiveness" too, many times), So when a leader says something that a member doesn't like, even from the pulpit at General Conference and over a span of 20 years, like Adam-God from Brigham Young, it is only "opinion" or "we really aren't sure what he meant", but if he says that we need to just do our best, keep repenting, keep striving to be perfect, and the grace of God will cover what we can't or are unable to do, even though that is not in your scripture, it is accepted and received with gladness. Have you thought about that?
Have you considered that you may be the one that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 7:21-23, not me. How would you know?
Gotta fix something, I didn't finish the point,,sorry,,
I said, "Why is it that if I were to show the majority of LDS members a quote from Brigham Young that they would disregard it because it was not in their "canon" of scripture, yet ALL of what they believe about their progression beyond this life, their opportunity to be forgiven of sins that weren't taken care of in this life will be able to be taken care of in the next, albeit a thousand times harder to do so. (Yes I have read "A miracle of Forgiveness" too, many times), isn't in their scripture either....
Ken

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God. Mark 10:17-18
Jesus said that he himself wasn't good; so don't pretend that I meant something that I didn't, and I was well aware of those other scriptures, and I am well aware of the meaning of the word good.
For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. Alma 5:40-41
And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me saying--Behold, here am I send me, I will do it; wherefore give me thine honer. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me--Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Moses 4:1-2
Now this is the reason that Jesus rejected being called good, not just because the man called him good, but because the man gave Jesus the glory by his every action, it even says that he kneeled to him.
Jesus also said:
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholds not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Luke 6:40-45
Ken, that is what I meant by saying that I know that you are a good man, meaning that I do not believe that you are full of darkness. I believe that you desire to keep God's commandments, but you have a false sense of salvation because you believe that God will save you without work. God commands an army, an army of solders that do his commands. Yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before him. Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea, and even according to their faith it was done unto them. Alma 53:21 & 57:21
For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state--I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body--I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which has been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you. Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them. And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel. And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true. Mosiah 4:5-12
And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore all things must be done in order. Mosiah 4:27
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1 Corinthians 10:13
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished: but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 2 Peter 2:9-10 or if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. 2 peter 2:4-5
We may, indeed, be sure that perfect chastity--like perfect charity--will not be attained by any merely human efforts. You must ask for God's help. Even when you have done so, it may seem to you for a long time that no help, or less help than you need, is being given. Never mind. After each failure, ask forgiveness, pick yourself up, and try again. Very often what God first helps us towards is not the virtue itself but just this power of always trying again. For however important chastity (or courage, or truthfulness, or any other virtue) may be, this process trains us in habits of the soul which are more important still. It cures our illusions about ourselves and teaches us to depend on God. We learn, on the one hand, that we cannot trust ourselves even in our best moments, and on the other, that we need not despair even in our worst, for our failures are forgiven. The only fatal thing is to sit down content with anything less than perfection. C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity pages 100-102
If in his weakness he fails time and time again, he still should not despair but should make each new effort stronger than the last. The Miracle of Forgiveness p.174
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, he have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If their is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. 13th Article of Faith
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws of the Gospel. 3rd Article of Faith
Obedience to the laws of the gospel is having faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:20-24
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:17-18
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not these things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? James 2:14-16
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. James 3:13
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. James 3:6
But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. James 3:14-16
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents,and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. James 3:7-8
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James 3:17-18
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? James 3:11
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. James 3:10
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9
Keep the commandments of God in order to be more like him or don't keep the commandments in order to be more like the devil. The gospel is simple. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins that we might not commit them anymore, the price is paid. In turn we must come follow him and take upon us his yoke; for his burden is light and his yoke is easy. Our purpose in mortality is that we might learn to become like our Heavenly Father; for we are created in his similitude; why would God give us commandments if not to keep them, the atonement does not rob justice, it accounts for it. Are we to continually fall short from doing the Lord's work, God forbid. We must accept Jesus Christ for the payment made for past transgressions, he has paid bail, we are out of jail, are we then to return to jail by committing sin, as Paul would say, God forbid.
Take action, make your covenants as Abraham did with the Father, Jesus Christ is the mediator, the judge, covenant with the Father that through Jesus Christ's payment for your sins you will become a new creature. As Alma puts it, I have been born of God.
For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit. And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Mosiah 27:24-26
Let me ask you what kind of creature is God? But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:37-39
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Isaiah 53:10
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an alter with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, through he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we oughtn't to think that the Godhead is like gold or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance to all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:23-31
And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son--The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becometh subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, Being one God, sufferethtemptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, as a sheep before the sheerer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intersession for men--Having descended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and transgressions,having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice. And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made on offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed? Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord-- I say unto you, that all those who have harkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God. For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now are they not his seed? Mosiah 15:1-12
For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who then is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Corinthians 3:1-17
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16
Come unto me, all ye that labour and our heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in hearth: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefor thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:20-24
Ye cannot serve sin and love God. Ye cannot be the offspring of God and the offspring of the devil. Either you are the children of God, or you are the children of hell. Either you are to become gods or devils. The one through life provided by Christ and living a godly life; the law of God, by keeping the commandments in that you live to be righteous day by day. And the other that you live to be ungodly; evil, full of the spirit of the devil taken captive by the chains on this hand: and if you are godly then to be released by the atonement. Chains or the Atonement, it is the choice placed before all mankind. Disobedience brings chains, disobedience of the commandments of God is sin, which leads us to bondage in chains of hell. Obedience to the commandments brings the Atonement of Jesus Christ unto the freedom of the soul of man. Obedience brings one's consciousness to the law of godliness through the Only Begotten, even the Lamb of God, and why are we to learn godly laws if not to keep them. and why are we to keep godly commandments if not to be a godly? and why must we be godly creatures if not to worship the Most High God; who is our Father. Why must we call God Father if not to be called his children? Chains are to hell, as the Atonement is to heaven; both keep you where you in-list to serve. And that is the great gift of God to man. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:21
I say that good men follow Christ until they are perfected in him and become as he is, even as the old proverb says that we become what we love. And good men love Christ because they are willing to keep the laws of God, the laws that give them access to the Atonement of Christ. These laws, which are God's laws bind us to freedom from sin, because of the Atonement of our Friend Jesus who is the lamb of freedom. Now this gift is free. We do not earn it through keeping the commandments, but we can only access this free gift by keeping the commandments of God. I close these words with hope in the good man that you are Ken Rice, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Jeshua

Jeshua,
Look at the verse more carefully. Who was talking to Jesus? What did that person believe? He identified Jesus as "Good Master", did Jesus answer his question or ask him something, state something so that he understood what Jesus was claiming? "why do you call me good" ONLY ONE IS GOOD, GOD! Jesus was not saying that He wasn't good! He was saying that He was God! A Jew talking to another Jew, proclaiming to be the only one who is good! You miss the whole significance of the scripture. Your meaning of the word good is not the same as the Jews and of Jesus' meaning of the word good. He didn't reject being called good! He accepted it! And only could accept it because He is God the Eternal Son! (John 1:1)
Who would a Jew kneel to? What exactly did they believe? They recited it every single morning and every single evening. Deut 6:4-5 ""Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
Your missing the whole point buddy. What was the reply to Jesus by the rich young man when Jesus said you must keep the commandments? He said that he had kept them all! What did Jesus say to him next? Sell you stuff and follow Me! What did the guy do? He walked away, He rejected the only thing that would "give him treasure in heaven", he rejected the Savior, He rejected what the savior told him. He was trying to establish his own righteousness by his own obedience and believed as the Jews did, that heaven was a reward for obedience to the law. Is that what Jesus just told him? What did the Apostle Paul say in regard to his obedience to the law? He said he was "blameless"! What did Jesus say about a persons righteousness? He said that a persons righteousness must "EXCEED" the righteousness of the Pharisee's! Paul was a Pharisee! A blameless before the law Pharisee! The law only condemns, that is all it does. You don't do anything to become right with God. We must BE right with God. You can only become right with God if the Father imputes the perfect life of Jesus to you. The question is how does that happen and is it a instantaneous event or an on going event? What do you think it is and why?
Most of your post, being just verses, mostly taken out of context, is a mishmash of truth mixed with ideas that don't actually support what your tying to get at. Scripture can never mean what it never meant Jeshua. Especially when several of the verses that you cite, when taken in context, actually refute LDS church teachings.
Most of your post I would actually agree with you, except that we define terms differently, things like "saved" don't mean the same thing to us, etc.
The bottom line is the issue of Idolatry, just as the rich young ruler was worshiping his wealth and missed the whole point of Jesus proclaiming to be God and to leave everything to follow him, including the one thing that was most important to him, you have to decide if the God that you worship is true. If God the Father is not an exalted man, if Jesus and Lucifer are not spirit brothers then your faith is in an invalid object. And as sincere as you may be, if your sincere faith is in an invalid object then your in big trouble.
You seem to think that Evangelical Christians don't believe that you have to do anything after you have been forgiven of sin? Why do you believe that? There is no authentic Christian that would agree with that belief!
I would be happy to take everyone of your Bible verses and show you in context what they are about. But Jeshua, why don't you support your core beliefs with scripture? Simply making a statement or posting a verse of scripture itself with nothing stated as to why your posting the verse or making the statement without scriptural support is simply stating your opinion or someone else statement without also posting why they made the statement. Make a statement about what you believe and give the scriptural support for that belief or just state it as your opinion, that is fine too.
You said,
"Ye cannot serve sin and love God." I agree.

"Ye cannot be the offspring of God and the offspring of the devil." We define the word "offspring" differently.

"Either you are the children of God, or you are the children of hell" I agree, but how are we born children of God or do we become children of God? That is the question that we disagree about.

"Either you are to become gods or devils." No, there is a third option. We will never become gods.Or the Devil, we could be followers of God to His Eternal glory, or we could be followers of the Devil to his eternal destruction.

"The one through life provided by Christ and living a godly life; the law of God, by keeping the commandments in that you live to be righteous day by day." You don't understand the difference between our position with God and our practical life.

"And the other that you live to be ungodly; evil, full of the spirit of the devil taken captive by the chains on this hand:" I agree.

"and if you are godly then to be released by the atonement." The question that must be addressed is how do you become godly?

"Chains or the Atonement, it is the choice placed before all mankind" I agree 100%

"Disobedience brings chains, disobedience of the commandments of God is sin, which leads us to bondage in chains of hell." I agree.

"Obedience to the commandments brings the Atonement of Jesus Christ unto the freedom of the soul of man." That is not what Jesus taught, that is what religion teaches.

"Obedience brings one's consciousness to the law of godliness", Actually you have it backwards. The law bring our consciousness to our inability to be obedient to it.

"through the Only Begotten, even the Lamb of God, and why are we to learn godly laws if not to keep them." Because the point of the law is to condemn us of our need for the Only Begotten, even the Lamb of God!

"and why are we to keep godly commandments if not to be a godly?" We are!

"and why must we be godly creatures if not to worship the Most High God" We are to be godly creatures.

"who is our Father." He isn't our Father in the sense that you have been taught. He is our creator, which in a sense makes Him our Father. We are adopted as His children, you must ask how?

"Why must we call God Father if not to be called his children? Your not His child as you have been taught. He is not your Father as you have been taught.

"Chains are to hell, as the Atonement is to heaven; both keep you where you in-list to serve." I agree

"And that is the great gift of God to man. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21

Of course I agree, but do you see Jesus qualifying words like "saved", "everlasting life"?

Jeshua, deal with the most important issue that there is. If God the Father isn't an exalted man is the LDS church what it claims to be?
Ken

"If God the Father isn't an exalted man is the LDS church what it claims to be?"
no of course not; if God the Father is not an exalted man than the LDS church is not what it claims to be. This is a true statement! And this is also a true statement: God the Father is an exalted man and the LDS church is what it claims to be! And God will prove it to you when he comes in his glory. I have tried to prove it to you with the scriptures that I outlined, and I see the error in your belief as plain as the sun shines.
"through the Only Begotten, even the Lamb of God, and why are we to learn godly laws if not to keep them." Because the point of the law is to condemn us of our need for the Only Begotten, even the Lamb of God!
You don't understand the word condemn, for in John we read; For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Condemnation is the destroying of one's life, but read carefully, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already" Destroyed, because if you don't believe, then you certainly have no hope, and therefore have no reason to keep the commandments, and have no reason to be exalted. But if you believe, then you are not condemned, and have all the reason in the world to keep the commandments.
Jeshua

Jeshua, believeth on Who? The spirit brother of the Devil? Or the God Who created the Devil? Do you understand the difference? They are not the same, just as you will not find any support for the Father being an exalted man. Your comment about "no reason to be exalted" is reading something into the discussion before you even have established the truthfulness of the the claim. Is something true just because you or I say it is? Of course not, truth isn't invented it is discovered. Gravity existed before it was discovered.
How do I not understand the word condemned? It is the Greek work Krino, and it is usually translated as Judged! Do you understand the implications of that? Do you understand what Jesus is saying, if you believe Him you won't be judged! Then who are those in Revelation whose works are being judged? They are those who didn't believe Jesus! Do you see that? Jesus is teaching that if you believe Him, and we could discuss exactly what that means, that you will not be judged, you are positionally right with the Father. It isn't about works, it is about what you believe. Just believing Jesus isn't enough, you must believe the truth. Jesus is the Eternal Son of God, He has always existed AS the ETERNAL SON OF GOD the Father, scripture is plain and clear about it, what the church teaches is contrary to that. Your faith, even if sincere, is only as good as the object of it.
You can ask the same question about Jesus that I did about the Father. If Jesus has always been the eternal Son of the Father not a spirit child that had a beginning, the Eternal creator Who created Satan, and is not the spirit brother of Satan, could the LDS church be what it claims to be?
I would suggest we take a look at the "I AM" statements that Jesus made and exactly what He meant and what the Jews understood, it could help you see the error in the teaching about Who Jesus is.
Are you interested in that?
Ken

Okay, I gave you too much meat, we will start with milk this time.
I will start with the statement of mine that "Obedience brings one's consciousness to the law of godliness"
And you said:
"Actually you have it backwards. The law bring our consciousness to our inability to be obedient to it."
Well what about: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1 Corinthians 10:13
You are probably going to disagree with me on this, but this scripture means exactly the same thing as: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. 1 Nephi 3:7
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13
Jesus Christ had a body of flesh and blood just as any of us has a body of flesh and blood, this you already know and believe to be true. If you don't believe this then that is okay for now, God will show you later that he had a body of flesh and blood. Another thing that is absolutely true is that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life as a mortal man on this earth about two thousand years ago. This you also know to be true. You also know that he was crucified and that he died. Now, Jesus Christ was a mortal man from the time of his birth to the time of his death on the cross, this you also know is truth. You also know that he kept all of the commandments of God and fulfilled the work given him to do while he was here on earth, that his will was the will of God. Now you must understand that there was no physical difference between the body of christ and the body of any man living in not to many details; such as that he had eyes and we have eyes, he had a mouth and teeth, and so do we, he was a man in all likeness as we are men. What blood pumped through his vanes was pumped using a normal human heart, he thought in his head using the same brain matter as we have in our brains, he used his muscles as we use our muscles. All this you know to be true.
Now Jesus Christ had a spirit, for it says that he gave up the ghost, meaning that his body and spirit became separate. You should know this to be true also, but if you don't God will make it manifested to you. The actions that the Lord Jesus Christ performed in the flesh were done so by him. Now can a man walk in the footsteps that Jesus walked in, could he have thought the thoughts that Christ thought, are those things physically possible? Yes, because our brains are lacking no physical difference, and our spirits are made in like manner of his spirit; just as our body is like his body. These things are axiomatic truths. If you say otherwise, then you lack understanding and cannot comprehend truth. So if he could lead a perfect life because of his understanding, then we could have also if we had the same knowledge. But we did not seek truth from the beginning of our mortal birth, therefore we did sin, but now that sin is taken away in Christ, we can begin again as if born of God, or born of the Spirit, to live a perfect life. And that is the foundation of the gospel. Well, at least as best as I can explain it to you. If you read those verses that I gave you, then you might understand it better then I can explain it, but even better, if you ask God to enlighten your mind and understanding, so that you can comprehend it even better.
good bye, I won't write to you again anymore, unless you are more sincere for your quest for truth next time :)
Jeshua

I absolutely agree with idea stated in those verses. The problem Jeshua is that, and I am only speaking about the 1 Cor verse, is that verse wasn't written in a vacuum. And your missing the significance of the verse and what Paul is saying, because your focused more on the 1 Nephi verse, and what the church teaches about it, the verse in Cor is not teaching what the LDS church and Kimball taught and they use the 1 Nephi verse to support what they teach.
So to be clear let me tell you how I understand the LDS teaching that they use those verses to support. The idea is that God will not give us a command that we cannot keep, because He also gives us the ability to keep it, since He commanded us to and expects us to keep it. When we fail at keeping it, it is our failure, not His, we must repent and try again and if we fail we must repent and try again until we overcome it. Now assuming that I understand the implications, as the LDS church teaches them, of the verses, let me show you the problem. It is a twisting of the scripture in 1 Cor to say that it means what the LDS church teaches. Read it more carefully. What is Paul writing about and to who?
Paul starts by reminding the church at Corinth just exactly who they are and where they came from. He reminds them of the Exodus with Moses, He talks about the failings of the Israelite's who were constantly going after false gods or idolatry. Paul says how they were an example to them that they might not follow the same path or error. "do not be idolaters, as they were", "we must not indulge in sexual immorality as they did", "we must not test Christ, as they did with the serpents", "nor grumble", "these things were an example to us, that is why they were written down for us". (verses 1-11) then in verse 12 he tells them, "look guys you think your good, are you pretty confident about yourselves" then you better check yourself, cause your gonna fall big time, as they did! Then we get to verse 13, ...
"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
"No temptation...that is NOT COMMON TO MAN...!, what is Paul referring to? He just gave us a list! Idolatry, sexual immorality, testing God, grumbling, over confidence or a lack of humility, then Paul makes the statement, "God is faithful...He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability...He will provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it"

Then in verse 14 He restates his focus again, "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry." As a side note, look at how he refers to the church, the body of Christ, the body of Believers, as it is stated elsewhere in scripture as "my beloved", he is speaking to the whole church or body there as one, beautiful!
Context means everything Jeshua, the text only means what Paul meant it too, it can never mean something that it never meant! Paul is writing to correct the crummy Corinthians because of what they were involved in, that is the purpose of the whole epistle! What verse 13 is not teaching is that we have the ability to obey Gods commandments simply because God also gives us the ability to do it if He commands it. That would be contrary to scripture where it says, by the same author, Paul, in Romans 3 for example. Our very nature is contrary to seeking out and obeying God, according to the scripture. So the implication in our lives is not that we are empowered to keep all of the commandments of God, that would ultimately nullify the cross, or at the very least minimize it. The implication is that we are empowered by God, as a born again, filled by the Holy Spirit of God, Christ living in us, regenerated, new creation in Christ Jesus, believer on the Son of God, to bear the temptations WHICH ARE COMMON TO MAN!, Idolatry, immorality, etc etc etc...
Ken

Jeshua,
I agree with nearly everything your stating. I would only want to discuss a couple of your points, where what you are stating is contrary to or are refuted by the word of God.
"Now Jesus Christ had a spirit, for it says that he gave up the ghost, meaning that his body and spirit became separate" I agree that He had a Spirit, the question is did His spirit come into existence at some point or is He the Eternal Son, Who has never not been the Eternal Son. (John 1:1, 14, Philippians 2:5-10, 1 Timothy 2:5)
"could he have thought the thoughts that Christ thought, are those things physically possible? Yes, because our brains are lacking no physical difference," While our brains may be physically the same, we most definitely can not, as humans, think the thoughts of Christ, why, because He is God! He was omniscient, we are not. (1 Kings 8:27, Jeremiah 23:24, John 4, and many other places in scripture)
"our spirits are made in like manner of his spirit; just as our body is like his body." No, His Spirit is Eternal and has always been, He is the exact substance and nature of the invisible God ( Hebrews 1, Colossians 1)
"So if he could lead a perfect life because of his understanding, then we could have also if we had the same knowledge." No, we can't He is God, He could live a perfect life because He is God, we are His creations. Even Adam and Eve refute that idea, they were perfect, they walked with God as their perfect parent and they chose to disobey, they chose to listen to Satan. It is our nature, as the scripture clearly states. God made us this way for a purpose, it was so that we would choose to have a relationship with Him. Our choice, a true love relationship. Love is not coerced. (Romans 3, and many other places)
You see Jeshua, it is a common human, from the very beginning of time, fallacy to bring God down to the level of man. Your stating that since we have a body and a brain and etc etc etc, that we are able to do everything that Jesus did because He had a body and a brain and etc etc etc. That is false. Jesus "became flesh" John 1:14, He is the Eternal God Creator of All things, even Satan (Colossians 1) We are not like Him, He is the only Begotten Son, look up that Greek word Jeshua it is ONLY used in regard to Jesus Christ, He became like us, we will never become a God like Him, that my friend is exactly the same lie that Satan told to Eve in the Garden.
The foundation of the gospel is based on the corner stone of the LORD Jesus Christ, He stated that Eternal life is to know the True God the Father and the True Son Jesus Christ. (John 17:3), Joseph Smith refuted the Father and the Son as reveled in the Word of God to be something else, an exalted man and your spirit brother, my friend if that is not true, and the word of God states explicitly that it is not true, then my friend you are an idolater. Do you believe that God will forgive your idolatry? Not unless you turn from it and accept the True God and the True Son and the True Gospel of the Bible.
I hope to continue the discussion, but your the one who really needs to evaluate how honest you are being. I am only giving you the scripture, you are only giving me Joseph Smiths interpretations of the scripture. Why do you trust Jesus to raise you from the dead, yet you don't trust Him to keep His word pure and preserved for you? Matthew 24:35, John 10:34?
Ken 7-26-2011

Please pray for Jeshua to see the Truth and be set free by the True Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ken